--- Day changed Thu Mar 16 2006
[...] (Times in TZ=Europe/Amsterdam)
00:19 < jonas> hmm - can someone please grant me write access to SVN, please - unless of course it is generally agreed that I should no longer have access
00:21 < jonas> maks: I am around because I maintain a package separate from the kernel (yaird) but interacting closely with it, so I judge it relevant to pay attention to what is core kernel activities as well.
00:22 -!- _rene__ [~rene@dslb-084-056-086-121.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #debian-kernel
00:23 < vorlon> jonas: er... "no longer" have access?
00:24 < jonas> vorlon: Yep. I was part of the kernel team until today.
00:24 -!- _rene_ [~rene@dslb-084-056-087-090.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:24 -!- _rene__ is now known as _rene_
00:24 < maks> wasn't that for when yaird was in the repo too?
00:25 < vorlon> so who removed your access?
00:25 < jonas> If you don't want me around then I won't bother you. But no, that's not what I have been doing here, no.
00:25 < jonas> vorlon: My buest guess would be Sven...
00:26 < vorlon> so there's no audit log, and no notification to users when they're removed?
00:26 < jonas> I suspect not
00:27 < jonas> Perhaps the alioth guys have an audit log hidden somewhere...
00:31 < jonas> maks: yaird is still in your repo. And that was actually what I was going to clean up now: The yaird in the d-kernel SVN repository was pulled in by Sven and was never used
00:32 < jonas> maks: ...due to my preferring to separate things and let interested parties join multiple teams, rather than having less larger - and more noisy - teams
00:41 < philh> which kernel is planned for etch? 2.6.16?
00:41 < Manoj> err, was there any discussion prior to removing your svn access?
00:42 < vorlon> Manoj: well, given that we don't even know who removed it...
00:43 < Manoj> since it appears to have been an inadvertent change, can we get it reverted?
00:44 < vorlon> talk to the kernel team admins?
00:44 < vorlon> tbm: ?
00:44 < Manoj> I am assuming that a change-by-design would have been preceded by a discussion, and informing the concerned parties
00:44 < vorlon> for all I know, someone was doing general cleanup of unused accounts
00:44 < jonas> Manoj: Nope (but neither was there one for granting me access ;-) )
00:45 < tbm> vorlon: yeah?  Erm, I don't know.  I didn't remove anyone.
00:45 < jonas> tbm: Do you want me part of the team?
00:45 < vorlon> that leaves dannf, wli, and dilinger 
00:45 < vorlon> (and svenl)
00:46 < vorlon> neither wli nor svenl are here to ask, and aiui wli isn't because he's no longer active
00:46 < tbm> jonas: I've no problem with you being in the team, no.  Let's first find out who removed you though.
00:46 < fs> we should mail inactive members and maybe drop them from the team
00:46 < tbm> Or should I add jonas straight back?
00:47 < fs> btw, what about ths? I would not like to drop him for example
00:47 < jonas> tbm: ah, ok.
00:47 < fs> is he just busy with other stuff?
00:47 < dannf> jonas: what tbm said
00:48 < tbm> fs: he just moved to the UK and doesn't have access to his harware.
00:48 < tbm> fs: this will change in April though
00:48 < dannf> jonas: have you asked alioth folks?
00:48 < jonas> dannf: Asked them what?
00:48 < tbm> fs: he's definitely a better mips kernel maintainer than me
00:48 < fs> tbm: good to know =) 
00:48 < dannf> jonas: if they have a record of who removed you
00:48 < dannf> jonas: if not, i will
00:49 < dato> azeem did
00:49 < dato> (seconds ago)
00:49 < jonas> dannf: No I haven't
00:49 < dato> (in #alioth)
00:49 < dato> dannf: ^
00:49 < dannf> dato: azeem asked?  any response?
00:49 < azeem> right, dannf, feel free to ask them again being an actual project member/admin
00:49 < azeem> dato: nope
00:49 < fs> tbm: well, you brought mips "back home" into the common package ;)
00:49 < dato> 00:47 <azeem> there seems to be some confusion on who removed jonas from the kernel project without prior discussion, can this be tracked somehow?
00:49 -!- horms [~horms@vagw.valinux.co.jp] has joined #debian-kernel
00:49 < dato> 00:48 -!- dannf [~dannf@colo.lackof.org] has joined #alioth
00:49 < dato> azeem: oh right, point on him being a member
00:50 < dannf> thanks datao/azeem
00:50 < dilinger> for the record, i didn't touch jonas's account
00:53 < jonas> Oh well. I am going to sleep now. G'night all!
00:53 < dannf> jonas: i'll send an e-mail out to the other admins
00:53 < jonas> dannf: Thanks
00:55 < azeem> an admin could try Admin->Project History from the alioth project page
00:55 < azeem> member additions seem to get logged there
00:55 < azeem> (never removed members from any of my projects)
00:56 < tbm> ah, yeah
00:56 < maks> and what does it say
00:56 < tbm> removed user: js   2006-03-07 18:59  by  luther
00:56 < azeem> blah
00:57 < tbm> nobody else got removed (i.e. no clean up took place)
00:58 < dannf> tbm: oh, good catch
00:58 < dannf> i'll just e-mail svenl then
00:58 < tbm> jonas: added back "js"
00:59 < dannf> hrm.. i wonder if its even worth talking to svenl about this
00:59 < maks> that was before the bug got resolved irc
00:59 < maks> anyway jonas clean up the old yaird
01:00 < dannf> i don't see the harm in jonas having commit access, so i'll just drop the issue - if it happens again, i'll try to mediate
01:00 < dannf> or kill myself - whichever sounds funner at the time
01:01 < maks> jonas should have received a notification
01:01 < maks> i'm not sure why he has commit although
01:01 < maks> and i'm still fed up of his long ending threads here.
01:01 < sgran> "vogon popetry makes most people want to kill themselves.  Unless they are slightly smarter, in which case they want to kill the vogons"
01:02 < sgran> something to bear in mind for those fun conversations :)
01:02 < dannf> if he cleaned up old yaird, that sounds like good enough, and if he still wants it, well i see more chance of positives than negatives
01:12 -!- svenl [~svenl@LAubervilliers-151-12-84-108.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #debian-kernel
01:12 < svenl> jonas: thank.
01:12  * svenl leaves email and other such alone now, promise ...
01:13 -!- svenl [~svenl@LAubervilliers-151-12-84-108.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #debian-kernel []
01:14 -!- maks [~max@baikonur.stro.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:14  * dilinger rolls his eyes
01:19 -!- maks [~max@baikonur.stro.at] has joined #debian-kernel
01:24 < vorlon> jonas: what are you being thanked for?
01:25 < horms> morning all
01:28 < dannf> hey horms
01:29 < dannf> horms: fyi, i'll be in tokyo in about a month i think - meeting up w/ junichi/bdale & some other hp folks
01:30 -!- GCarrier [~gcarrier@tofu.eu.org] has joined #debian-kernel
01:32 < horms> awsome
01:33 < horms> if you have time i'd love you meet up with you
01:33 < maks> dilinger: will you send a notice on svenl that his d-kernel account is deactivated?
01:34 < maks> svenl agrees not to participate any more afais.
01:34 < jvw> I think it's better to have someone less involved send a notice
01:35 < dilinger> i agree.  tbm or dannf should probably be the ones to disable his account, and send him an email
01:36 < dilinger> i had planned on having some sort of vote on d-k
01:36 < dannf> horms: yes; hopefully we can invite you along to dinner or something - I'll let you know as I book flights, etc.
01:36 < horms> great
01:36 < tbm> sorry, I haven't been paying attention.  Is there unequivocal agreement that his account should be deactivated?
01:36 < horms> as long as its in tokyo it should be easy enough for me to get to wherever you are, or alternatively, take you somewhere
01:36 < tbm> and/or should we ask him before if that's okay with him
01:36 < dannf> horms: cool
01:37 < tbm> if we just remove him, isn't that what he did with jonas?
01:37 < fs> it is
01:37 < fs> and I don't think removing svenl is a solution
01:38 < jvw> tbm: as a bystander, not being involved, I'd say it'd be a justified action to demote Sven to regular kernel-team member in alioth, because of having used his admin privileges to disable jonas' account without informing him or talking with any of the other admins -- but again, I'm not involved in kernel at all
01:38 < fs> please re-add jonas, and let us find a solution to this mess instead of kicking everyone around
01:38  * dannf thinks jonas is back
01:38 < tbm> I added jonas already.
01:38 < jvw> my only interested is trying to defuse this fight as good as possible, but I'm uncertain yet how -- though, such demotion certainly should be mailed to d-kernel
01:39 < jvw> or at least, to Sven personally
01:39 < tbm> anyway, I agree.  Please email d-kernel or Sven first
01:39 < fs> I am fine with revoking svenls admin privileges, but please don't kick him from the team until the last word is spoken on this issue
01:39 < dannf> we could just let this go, and ask that svenl discuss removals with other admins first in the future - that should be sufficient
01:39 < dilinger> well, you all know my feelings already
01:39  * dilinger heads home
01:40 < dannf> we have no process in place to decide someone should be removed, so punishing someone for violating it wouldn't be good imo
01:40 < fs> well, dropping someones account from the kernel team without finding a consensus about it first is not what I consider teamwork
01:41 < dannf> agreed
01:41 < jvw> dannf: demotion would only prevent the exact same from happening again, it doesn't in any way affect svn commit access etc
01:41 < fs> if we want to collaborate all together, we need to respect each other, and that line was crossed
01:42 < fs> so IMHO (temporarily) removing admin status is ok, dropping from the team is not
01:43 < dannf> i wouldn't lose sleep over revoking admin accesss, if tehre was a general consensus, but i don't think it will help anything
01:44 -!- faw [~felipe@200.138.47.116] has joined #debian-kernel
01:44 < fs> it will: overreacting is wrong, only showing apropriate reactions and pointing everyone concerned to such a behaviour will help us in the current situation
01:44 < dannf> if we ask him not to do it again and he does it again, then removing privs is easily justifiable
01:45 < Manoj> fs: what would you consider grounds for removing from team?
01:45 < fs> Manoj: destructive behaviour towards users and team-mates
01:45 < horms> i think the question is not so much can we justify removing him from the team, as will that resolve the long term problem
01:46 < fs> like willingly commit brteakage to others work
01:46 < Manoj> fs: I see. In my opinion, the second criteria has been met -- or not, depending on whether you mean DD's or just fellowkenel team people
01:46 < dannf> Manoj: honestly, i think if most people on the team want to see him go, that's probably sufficient
01:47 < dato> I leave this all to you, i hope you are up to the responsability, and will not
01:47 < dato> participate again in the kernel team until i am asked to.
01:47 < dato> (in case it hadn't been pasted, http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/03/msg00692.html)
01:49 < fs> Manoj: both. I still think those having a problem with sven have trouble coping with his humour and take things way too personal, but that may just be my perception
01:51 < vorlon> fs: there's nothing humorous about a 50 message crapflood.
01:51 < Manoj> fs: I don't think the names he called me, or how he characterized my work, were very funny
01:51 < Manoj> but, in any case, if the "jokes" cause a work environment which is seen as downright hostile by people as diverse as joeyh and me, I think there is a problem
01:52 < fs> hm
01:52 < Manoj> indeed, the tool used to build kernel images, k-p, and the people building images using the tool, should really be in closer contact
01:52 < vorlon> there's nothing humorous about him whining about the release team being mean to him, repeatedly, despite having shown empirically on -devel that his argument was full of shit
01:52 < Manoj> this has not happened, and that does imact the project.
01:53 < Manoj> I know of a couple of people who have moved away from kernel packaging, and did not join the team, because of sven -- and that comes under hurting debian as well.
01:54 < fjp> He's also delaying the resolution of issues shared between d-i and kernel team
01:55 < dannf> i think i'd be in favor of some kind of kernel-team-internal vote to decide if we should remove him from the alioth project - i don't think we'd need to justify it (should it pass), more than we think the team would be better this way.
01:55 < fjp> We do acknowlegde things like udeb packaging and non-free modules can be improved/need to be dealt with, but have serious problems with the solutions proposed by Sven.
01:56 < fs> fjp: the one udeb per module approach?
01:56 < dannf> fs: rightt
01:56 < fjp> The fact that discussions on these are dominated by him and that no other kernel team member/porter participates makes it hard to reach a solution
01:57 < fjp> fs: No, he silently dropped that
01:57 < dannf> fjp: oh?
01:57 < fs> yeah, the package file would have been exploded in size otherwise =)
01:57 < fjp> His last solution was to completely hijack the udeb building and make it part of kernel uploads.
01:58 < fjp> And have kernel porters make the selections as part of kernel configuration somehow.
01:58 < fs> fjp: ubuntu for example builds the udebs out of their linux-2.6 package, and I too think the approach is worth a try
01:59 < fjp> fs: As I say, things can be improved and discussed, but openly and with more ppl involved; not now
02:00 < fs> fjp: yeah. what I miss is a proposal in form of actual code, no need to discuss further before that.
02:02 < fjp> I do think we need to discuss some core issues beforehand, like who is responsible for what and how can we ensure that e.g. initrd size problems (build failures) can be fixed promptly. Also how to guard against random changes breaking d-i.
02:02 < fjp> Anyway, later.
02:02 < fs> yeah, I have to sleep now
02:02 < fs> n8 =)